I think, it was Tan's post on this blog itself, Republic Day Event, where this question was raised.
My answer. YES. we need communal parties even in Independent, Secular India.
Now let me take you, back to events before 1947. When India was a colony of the British Empire.
The congress party, in its attempt to gain momentum for the independence movement, heavily used Hinduism, an example of which is the famous Ganesh Utsav held in Mumbai every year.
Who complains? No one. But at that time, due to various policies of the congress, Muslims started feeling alienated. Jinnah, in these times, got stubborn over the need of Pakistan and he did find a lot of supporters. Congress, up till late 1940's never got bothered by it. And why should we?
Who complains? No one.
But there were repercussions. The way people were butchered and slaughtered during that brief time when India got partitioned, was even worse than a civil war scenario. All in the name of religion. And there indeed was created a communal country. The communal card as usual worked.
We Indians, it seems never learned a lesson from the bloody massacre. In India, our constitution has a separate law for Hindus and Muslims and you tell me that we are secular. cool. The constitution of my motherland has been written in a foreign language by the leaders of my own country. cool.
In 1980's the congress, encouraged Bhindranwale in Punjab, which resulted in heavy militization in the state. Educated young men, even some holding doctorate degrees were killed in fake encounters, and many themselves turned militants.
What happened? People still love the congress here. It is being estimated that they may win the next Lol Sabha election in the state.
Move forward, some more years. The same man Bhindranwale, whom the congress was preparing as an answer for the Akali Dal, was killed by the congress Prime Minister, Indira Gandhi in the complex of Shri Harminder Sahib, Amritsar, by using military forces. Who wins? Everyone. The man is now seen as a martyr. The congress did gain a lot of votes it wanted. The public at large is satisfied.
Who bothers? No one. Communal Politics once again wins.
Shortly after this incident, a Sikh bodyguard of Mrs. Indira Gandhi kills her. And the congress party men, allegedly started killing every Sikh in sight due to this logic that a Sikh killed their leader. The bloodiest, riots of Independent India perhaps. The mayhem in Delhi in 1984, I think has very little parallels. Where are those leaders who did this now? They all are respectable, public servants, involved in active politics, of course, no case was ever proved.
Who wins? Communal politics. For more than ten years Congress is ruling over Delhi. People are very satisfied. Content. Forgive and forget, till the next thing happens.
How many people could blame Rajiv Gandhi for this? No one. His mother just died. He is smart, intelligent, well educated etc. etc. Everyone was in shock. The president of India was so shocked that even without consulting the Parliament or the cabinet at that time, he made Rajiv the PM. What a mockery of this motherland.
But no. Rajiv Gandhi is one of the most popular Prime ministers of all time. He, of course, could have not stopped his party leaders at that time. But people, many even on this blog, claim Narendra Modi could have stopped the fury that poured when people saw their own men killed in the name of religion. He has to be blamed for the 2002 riots in Gujarat. He is not a foreign educated, suave gentleman whose family dominated Indian politics for decades. His background stinks of Hindutva, people tell me. An RSS man, he must have done all the wrong. Forget his economic brilliance and blah blah.
We Indians have so many double standards. Yes, we encourage communal politics. Modi has since 2002 won the elections twice.
Now come, to 1993. The riots in Mumbai. Tell me, wise people, how many people were really hanged to death? Where are those people who were the cause of so many rapes and loots, of arson and of violence?
They all are doing awesome. I hear, even Sanjay Dutt, is contesting elections, even when the court told him he was guilty. And his winning chances are high too.
Even Bal Thackrey and all the others are doing fine. People in Mumbai even support his nephew in shooing away North Indians, when the need arises.
Yes, communal politics we demand. And communal politics we get.
If you ask me to study history and fish out the best strategy to win elections in India, this particular one is the most favored one. No, not by politicians but by the people.
They want communal politics. They demand it. And they get it.
One last example, with due respect to every Muslim on earth. I was watching nuclear issue debate going on in the parliament. A smart young M.P. stood up to tell us all, why he was supporting the Congress on the particular issue.
The reason was given: The congress government increased the Haj subsidy by several hundred crores of rupees, to enable Muslims to go on a Holy Pilgrimage on tax payer's expenses. (Of course, we are a secular country. Did you never read the Preamble of our Constitution?)
Now, for this reason, he speaks that Muslims will always support the government headed by Congress.
How much I ever wish, that a Hindu would get better facilities on pilgrimages, leave alone subsidies on travel and expenses, I am not in favor of appeasement of a religious community for petty gains of votes, especially with the use of public money on a large scale.
So if you ask me, that a large part of the country favors the Congress for its appeasement of other religions and some part of the country likes the communal BJP, and which will I choose?
I am frankly in favor of the party which at least speaks out in support of my religion, instead of bluffing up with different religions and playing dirty games.
For communal politics, is what people vote for. I proved you through history.It does work.
You choose now. Indirect communal tactics or direct communal strategies.
I made a choice. Now you make one.
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In continuance to my last post, according to the replies received, one award's polling has now begun. This is 2) The Young & Budding writer on Jagruti Award
An award specifically reserved for the minors writing their best on this blog.
Keep voting.
Comments
But in a country where all the religions exist..there if a party that supports any single religion comes up as the ruling party..then what would be the condition of the people of other religions..Isn't that a point...
Well, Congress plays dirty games.. and all I donno whether it is true or not..
I also know that some people believe that Christianity is a religion brought to India by the Britishers...
well history proves it wrong...
So such things..I juss can't argue...But I only say that a communal party ....whether a Muslim party or a HINDU party or a Christian party ..it'll surely be biased...and that makes my answer NO to it....
ps:)watever I hav said is not to prove you rong...I juss have kept up my opinion...
:)
Of course, you are right.
Any political party that is biased for or against a particular religion is not a good party, at least to govern the country. Agreed.
But the point I raised here is, that people have supported, are supporting, and most probably would be supporting in future as well, such people and parties.
So, the only thing left out is, the degree of how communal a party is.
We are supposed to be a tolerant society. So, if parties based on faith do arise, theoretically, we should *tolerate* them. Right? But let's get practical... However much you and I and the people we supposedly know say they are *tolerant* of the idea, there will be the other masses who see this as an opportunity to raise slogans.
In other words, this is a double-edged sword - where the sharper end will probably have the last say. Hope you get the point. Period.
That said, I am not saying I disagree when you talk about the 'degree of how communal a party is'. Religion seems to have a word in so many things!
Peace.
You are right. The sword is double edged but don't you think that if over the period of time, our country men would have rejected the idea of affiliating themselves with religious fanatics, the people raising slogans, would have lost confidence in their own tactics.
But time and again, people did support the elements disrupting peace in the society, as a result of which these people thrive.
And this I tell you, is a huge malaise in the society.
secular in spirit ?? are Indians secular in spirit ?? if yes hw does the existence of a communal party matter ??? think about it .. what threat do they pose ? its wht the ppl want the polit parties capitalise on ... so wen a debate is raised on whether there is a need for communal parties i think we are escaping the real issue which is the secular indian ...
I rest my case ...
gud post tushar
Peace.
In today's time wat ppl r worried the most about is.. roti kapda and makaan
and thus, no one reely is worried abt having or supporting a religious party...coz'they all try to select a party that is best for them ..economically.
But wen incidents as such takes place then people get provoked..that's all...
so common man is not reely worried about religion...that's it...
well' I guess I am enjoying this argument...
:)
he he he ... is it really only roti kapda and makaan ..??? I would think twice before i make that stmt.
If that were the case there would not exist many issues .. but they do exist right ???
woman inequality .. dont let your woman wrk even if u r on the roads .... (rural scenario)
no dignity of labour in india .. many wud not take up certain joba as it wud embarrass them .. the embarrassment is due to lack of social equality in our societies ..
No priya .. in India religion influences 99.9999 out of 100
maybe not our generation and the ones to come ,.. but even in them the number will be less only in urbanised and middle and above middle income groups and they are not a big number in India...
y does a party like congress get majority when a Hindu or any other religious party is present in INDIA.. That's it...
J&K polls see the results and compare this times' result with the previous years .. BJP won 11 ... compared to 1 in the last and a similar number in the elections before that.. thanks to Amarnath issue ... it is about assertiveness of a particular group ..
you talk about congress ??? congress wins because of communal politics and policies ... AP is one of the best ex. ppl(muslim) hv often stated they vote for cong because they fear BJP will be against them .. this was an article and covered by a news channel as well just 2 or 3 mnths back .. dn remember the details nw ...
Work places .. well have you started working ??
These issues exist .. and again what is the % of population you think works in the corp. world ???
what % of 1.1 billion ??
if you say the same 20 years down the lane i will probably agree with you ... it's not the time for that now ..
:)
And here goes my comment in strong dissaproval.
All the while here,what you have pointed out is the immorality of communal politics,Mr. Mangal. How can you back it up?
Communal politics and communalism are symbiotic in relation.
Simply because communal politics had won immorally, instead of making people more literate, socially aware and tolerant, you will laud it? You will not instigate them to fight against it, but will become a part of the communal disparities for short term personal profits so the problem may grow even massive one day? Thats what you have been accusing the congress of doing!
That people of Mumbai riots were not punished is bad, those who were accused are contesting elections- even worse. That bal thackery's nephew has such idiotic grounds is horrible, and that people back him-even worse.
But Lets raise a voice, and DO something against it.
You have noted the problem well, but your solution, is one of the worst ones ever.
If muslims were appeased in this way: Even the Muslims must fight against such means. If you too become a part of such means, isnt the problem getting worse?
"Foreign language" !!!
Why do you call English a foreign language ,eh?
You surely do know WHY english was used, don't you? (because of India's linguistic diversity, English was the only language that was common to every part)
Then people like you will give me undending rants about "traditions" bwahaha....the bad traits in traditions get eliminated by themselves over time. Simple nuff.
"our constitution has a separate law for Hindus and Muslims"---bad as it is, I really was ignorant of that!
Why do you need to go back to the 80s to judge the Congress. Don't you think many differences come in the eons that pass? What better option do we have? Following Advani's rant of Hindu jihad?
Modi never won the election, Tushhar, because of riots or supporting hindutva, he won them because he gave people 1)security 2)advancement 3)development 4)education 5)basic minimum
Can't you see how Gujarat has prospered?
Nothing in the whole world could have said that Narendra Modi did it in the name of Hinduism....what do wind mills have to do with religion?
Agreed there:
That sikhs were kiled because of that reason is wrong.
Rajiv gandhi was made PM because of that fact is wrong.
But forget his economic brilliance? WRONG.
Go and please check up the reasons of his being so popular as the PM.
He was responsible for the Guj. riots? WRONG. He did not go out and instigate prejudices in people, and to say he 'indirectly' did it, is to place a flaw in reasons.
And flaw in reasons is what I see in this post.
That there are immoral practises is wrong. But to say that the good works of people must not be lauded because of these immoral practises are even worse.
And becoming a part of the problem instead of solving it is even more so.
well...yeah! I am not working but ma parents hav worked inn north India..and haven't faced such a thing ever at work..well yesh..sometimes ..coz of ignorance and all..that is another issue..
so what I say is these parties provoke such feelings..and I feel so..now the world is changing..and yeh terrorists...also provoke such feelings...
dear i remember telling you, you have very nice, pure views ... :) bless you and hope many more think like you
@ priya and Ayushi
the basic point i raised was nt about the merit of having or not having such parties but what wud their significance be in a secular, truly secular state ..
that remains unanswered
heheh thanx ..I juss hope u ren't calling me an immature kid..:(
:P
Well' abt its significance I would juss say...it doesn't have any significance...I would also say..a party against all the beliefs would be as significant as it...tat's it.
and sure as per the poll you are one of the kids on the block :P
thnks. You are rite. How secular we are, will decide how secular are representatives are going to be.
@ Priya
No, i disagree. People don't see economics when they vote. Infact that is very much not in their consideration list. And if it is, it comes some where in the end of the list.
@ Ayushi
Thnku for visiting the blog and reading the post.
First of all, I never intent to pass judgments here, especially on the events of the past. I kept the facts in front of you.
You are saying that the times have changed.
Tell me, are their no discrimination happening, anywhere in the country in the name of religion?
I simply question that what have we really learned from the past?
That the communal politics is encouraged by the people.
You are talking here about economics, development etc etc etc.
How many educated young people really go to vote?
How many educated middle class people go voting?
The condition in this country is such that politicians don't even prefer to waste their time on localities where such people live.
but on reading the post, all i can see is this post is drenched in sarcasm..
and what has been happening in the name of religion in our country has been wrong - all wrong- the ayodhya kaand, the godhra kaand,bombay riots, the raj thhakrey problem, everything- these happenings disturb the common citizens of the country and ths why we have this raised this issue today.
we donot want this anymore.. we donot wanna have our people killed ion the name of religion.. so we donot need the communal parties anymore..
and the bhindranwala issue u raised here, u too know tushar, it isnt still calm in punjab.. whenever they get a chance, the khalistan issue is raised each time.. the blue star, black thunder, and latest the ram-rahim wala case, which has been burning the whole of the state even after this long of the incident, has been annoying..
yes it annoys us, like few days back kartz said our ppl have earned the independence, and they were right in their times, but with the passage of time, the game of power got intense and it took over the politics, making it dirty, so we need a change in our political system and we donot need those communal parties for gods sake!!
No point in twisting words.
The post was: Do we need communal parties?
It will have a lot of significance because communal feelings are still present, and with their cropping up, the SIGNIFICANCE OF COMMUNALISM will INCREASE, hence the significance of these parties will increase further.
Tushhar,
1)I said the times have changed specifically with concern for the Congress.
2)Read the comment to Sid, communalism is present, however, it and the cropping of such parties being symbiotic, it will grow even more.
3)I talked of economics BECAUSE you related popularity of genuine efforst in these feilds to religionism.
4)So, instead of motivating them to vote, you take advantage of them not voting? :S
twisting words ..??? excuse me .. I am showing you the real issue .. face your fears if you want to be strong ... isnt that what the case should be ???
yes you need communal parties in india and then you need to see them and communal agendas od psuedo secular parties kicked out of the scenario... else you are creating a bubble which will burst ..
it is not twisting words but identifying the root issue here ?? hw much of an interaction do you have with the masses be;low poverty line and the financially under privileged..? please do that and you shall find that regionalism as of telengana in hyd.. religion etc are very much very very dear to them ... lets keep aside what educated rational minds think ... because they can sometimes be far away from the ground reality and belong to the elite ...
as tushar said most of the elite do not vote .. and even if they do .. please research on what happened to NTR in AP in 89 elections ...
no i am not highlight sensationalized instances but very generic happenings ...
everything cannot be debated with reason ... why ?
FACE IT ..! Many of them out there are NOT rational... period.
Religion is used as a force to mobilize workers. The grass root workers.
And Ayushi, u say, that the educated class should be motivated???
Wow... if a well educated person can not understand the importance of voting, who can?
I know things are bad. We all know they are bad. ques is, what we do about it>???
Today - its religion.
Tomorrow - it will be class.
Religion is not the issue here, the issue is irrationality, and the political manipulation of its.
If you give way to it - you are only adding to their success.
Making parties for short term interests based on such divisional and irrational grounds is NOT the solution to this deep rooted problem
Tushhar,
But thats not the point,is it? Even the educated masses have to be shown reason(although it might be on a different level)
Both of You, and to anybody who agrees with them,
Don't be adamantly stubborn, if you are rational enough, you will realise what I've said. I don't want anybody to admit it.
My aim is not to show anyone down or something.
I think thats all I have to say on this topic.
If You realise the ridiculousness,irrationality,balderdash and hogwash of your post - well and good, if you don't: It doesn't affect me anyway. Goodbye.
Sorry again i ahvent been able to read all the comments; they're just too many and too long.
Interesting post Tshhar! I can't believe that you wrote the last part saying that you would actually support a party who promotes communal disharmony and violence!! but good job if, as Richa said, you wrote it in sarcasm.
And Ayushi is correct in saying that the real problem the world over, today, is irrationality. Anyways, Tshhar i'm still shocked!
we are not saying create communal parties it is gud for you .. understand the sarcasm ... no no the disgust we have for communalism hw it is embedded in our society and hw people get influenced by it ...
people in a democracy get a government they deserve .. always .. thats the point we guys are harping on .. it doesnt matter if its a explicitly acclaimed or a pseudo secular party .. the root issue dear is the people who are the fuel for such parties ..
moreover the concept of secularism would be violated if you banned a communal party because it was communal .. you would be violating the constitution .. irony ... isn't it ??? but then thats the way it is ...
Your crticism accepeted with grace,Ma'am.
@Sushant
What i say is, in reality if you ask, that to cleanse a system, you have to get deep into it.
If I say, I wont be supporting any party, will that be correct?
To act like a mute bystander, is that right?
We have to jump in, to find a solution, solve it, in short to do something.
niway I guess I don't find any reason to agree with you ...
As you have ur own reasons I too have mine...
well,...I stand firm with what I said..and I know that you too will...
Is there any point in arguing juss for winning it or losing it when no effective solution comes up?
:)
Good Work!
Agreed, thats an irony that people abuse democracy by their ignorance, but that doesn't mean we join in with them. :), as you have well pointed out(sarcasm,was it? dint look like one :S)
:D emotions? *sniffs*
Ye, maybe a bit because I got a bit personal on that "adamantly stubborn" lol(ok, i take that back!)...
and ye, your gracious acceptance of criticism is much appreciated :)
Who actually wrote this post? was it tushhar? or was it 'sid'who has many akas or was it some people together?
We are not arguing, but only discussing some thing here.
Winning or losing does not matter much here.
@ Sid,
Any discussion in which Sid, turns an active partner is obviously an enlightening one :-)
A very knowledgeable discussion this was. I learned some thing from it. Dunno about others.
@ Gauri, thnks for dropping by.
@ Ayushi,
Me wrote this write up.
though I am not satisfied :P
Not satisfied...
hmmmm
Say, what have we really left out here.
Or as I think, another part of this post should be penned to clarify more points.
Well u have a point. Each one has different plans.
But the good point is, they really have some intentions.
@ Kartz
yeah man, I just wish that she joins up this blog, and shares her opinions, writing posts here.
Would be a great experience reading them.
@ Disha
Point noted girl.